A while back, I saw the opening to a book review in Haaretz with the following question in large black letters:
Reform Rabbi Meir Azari: “When Jews go into an Arab Village and burn homes on Shabbat, that’s Judaism?”
To a certain ilk of Jews in this country, of course, the answer is “yes.” They won’t quite say that explicitly, but their actions leave no doubt as to what they think. Their rabbis don’t condemn it, while some of those rabbis obviously encourage it. The army does virtually nothing to stop it (as was the case under governments left and center as well) and Israelis mutter under their breath that “this has to stop” but go on, because, well, we think we have bigger fish to fry.
We do, indeed, have many fish to fry, but I’m not sure we have bigger fish to fry. Many of our fish are big, and many require urgent frying. The hostages are the most urgent, but then there are a dozen other issues, all critical to the survival of the Jewish state:
maintaining some semblance of a liberal democracy here,
addressing the scourge of government corruption,
fixing the IDF so it can actually win a war,
dealing with Iran, the Houthis and all our “cousins” on all our borders,
trying to stem the hemorrhage of medical and hi-tech professionals leaving,
restoring some norms of civility in public discourse,
making housing even close to affordable so young people don’t believe that the only way to buy a home is to do it abroad
and many, many more.
But restoring / creating / cultivating a form of Judaism that is both religiously and intellectually serious as well as morally and ethically nuanced and thoughtful is, I think, also a very big fish.
So when I read the review of Rabbi Azari’s book, and then the book itself (which has not been published in English, though he hopes that it will be), it seemed like it was time for this series to begin to speak to people from the worlds of faith and religion, to ask them why they believe Israel has not been able to produce a moderate, ethically sensitive and still popular form of Jewish religious expression.
Today is the first of a series of conversations about that, in which we’ll hear Rabbi Meir Azari on his new book, “Lighting the Way: Jewish Leadership Brings Change.”
Then, in the next week or two,
we will share a conversation with an Orthodox Rabbi, who is both a settler and a peace activist. And we’ll hear whether and to what degree his assessment aligns with that of Rabbi Meir Azari.
We will hear from a man for whom the murder of his parents on October 7th has sent him on a spiritual journey which is not explicitly religious, but is very spiritual. He has a vision for this place, too, and that vision may well surprise you.
Then we will head from leaders of what I might call “pathbreaking Orthodox” synagogues.
Then we’ll be able to compare all these different voices, determining which sounds the most convincing to each of us, thus enabling us to form an opinion of what must be done to move things forward as Israel begins its 78th year.
There’s almost no way all of us will agree with all of what we’re going to hear from this multitude of voices, but that’s the point. Even on this issue, Israel is a chorus of voices Orthodox and not, some religious and some more spiritual, some more right and some more left, some more hopeful, some less.
Hearing all those voices—with what they share as well as where they differ—is the only way to begin to understand what’s in the ether here.
Today, we begin with Rabbi Azari.
Rabbi Meir Azari was appointed as the Senior Rabbi of The Beit Daniel Centers for Progressive Judaism in 1991. Under his leadership, the Daniel Centers have grown to include four communities throughout Tel Aviv-Jaffa.
Meir Azair received his undergraduate degree in Jewish History and Political Science from Haifa University and his rabbinical ordination from Hebrew Union College in Jerusalem. He studied at Hebrew University, San Francisco University, and the Graduate Jewish Theological Seminary in Berkeley, CA.
Rabbi Meir Azari served as the Executive Director of the Israel Movement for Progressive Judaism from 1986-1989. He served twice as the chairperson of the Israeli MARAM (Israeli Council of Reform Rabbis) and served for more than 20 years as a Board Member of the Jewish Agency in Israel.
Rabbi Azari has published three books, the first an in-depth look into Israel Independence Day, its customs and traditions, as they have evolved in Israeli society. The second is an edited collection of articles introducing Reform Judaism to Israelis and Hebrew readers. The third book, recently published in 2024, is entitled Lighting the Way: On Jewish Leadership.
The link at the top of this posting will take you to the full recording of our conversation; below you will find a transcript for those who prefer to read, prepared for our paid subscribers.
A short while back, I had occasion to read in Haaretz, I think I read it in the English version of Haaretz, an absolutely fascinating article by Ronen Tal, who wrote a book about Rabbi Meir Azari's new book. The book is called "Leading the Way: Jewish Leadership Brings Change", it's only out in Hebrew now, we're hoping that it'll come out in English down the but the Haaretz article begins by saying, when Jews enter an Arab village and burns home on Shabbat, is that Judaism? The answer implicitly is obvious from the nature of the way that the question is asked. But as soon as I read the article, I realized that Rabbi Azari is someone whom our listeners absolutely need to become familiar with. Rabbi Azari has been the senior Rabbi of the Bait Daniel centers for progressive Judaism since 1991. For those people who visit Israel and do all the standard things to see, but have not put Bait Daniel on their list of places to take a look at, I urge you, the next time you're here, to go see Bait Daniel, which now has four different centers in the Tel Aviv-Yaffa area, a guest house, a seminar center, and so forth. If I say that, rabbi Azari has single-handedly built this, he will say that, "no, we did it with a lot of people", which is certainly true, but it is his vision, and it is his energy and leadership that have made Beit Daniel really an unbelievable well spring of Jewish activity, inspiration, passion, and so forth in a way that many people are simply just not aware that there are these powerhouses of reform Judaism in Israel. Rabbi Azari received his undergraduate degree in Jewish History and Political Science from Haifa University and his rabbinical ordination from the Hebrew Union College in Jerusalem. He studied in the Hebrew University, San Francisco University, The Graduate Jewish Theological Seminary in Berkeley, a whole a list of accomplishments that we will list in the notes and link to his biography on the Beit Daniel Center's website. But I wanted to speak to Rabbi Azari today, first, about the thesis of his book, which is that the Judaism that we often see coming out of Israel in the news, a Judaism that is not always open to women, that can be very hostile in its attitude to Arabs, that can cross the line in to violence and racism, and obviously, a lot of people feel that this government has fomented some of that, but we're going to stay away from politics, mostly, today. I want to speak to Rabbi Azari first about the thesis of his book, and then we want to talk about the whole issue of liberal, moderate, open-minded Judaism in Israel and the challenges that it faces. But first of all, Rabbi Azari, thank you very, very much. I know you're not in Israel much these days. I should actually say that you are married to Anna Azari. Anna Azari has had a long and distinguished career in the Israeli Foreign Ministry. She has been the ambassador to Russia and Ukraine and Poland, I think, in the past, and now is serving in Prague as Israel's ambassador.
And in between twice, the deputy director of the Ministry.
Deputy director. Okay. She's a very accomplished woman in her own, and is now serving as ambassador to the Czech Republic in Prague. And I know you're quasi on sabbatical spending a lot of time there, and your visits to Israel are fewer than they usually are. So I know your time here is very, very valuable. So I'm particularly grateful that you made your way to Jerusalem, I appreciate this conversation.
I appreciate your invitation, Daniel. The fact that my wife is in Prague allow me to spend time and write this book. For so many years, I wanted to write this book. As you describe my career, in '91, I entered to Beit Daniel after a few years in San Francisco. Actually, when I studied in the Hebrew Union College, I never had the feeling that I will serve as the community rabbi. Being in San Francisco, meeting in person, the Jewish life in America, I said, I owe it to myself. I got the opportunity in '91 to open Beit Daniel, which is the first reformed synagogue that was built in Israel as a synagogue. Can you imagine to yourself? 91. That was, wow, that was a treasure. I felt that I need to be there. I took the opportunity and I returned to Israel a year before my family. My wife served in as the Israeli Council in San Francisco. I did a year of commute between San Francisco and Tel Aviv. You can imagine to yourself.
That's a nice flight.
I said, Well, Israel needs reform Judaism. I grew up so far from reform Judaism, Daniel.
Tell us about your background, It's actually fascinating.
When I grew up in Haifa, in a secular Sephardic family, every Shabbat before going to a soccer game, my father took us to our uncle, great uncle, big uncle. We call it "Dod Ha'Gadol" in Hebrew, uncle of my father. He was like a grandfather to us. My uncle then, Dod Abraham, used to live in Haifa in a small apartment with his two wives.
He brought them from Yemen?
No, they grew up in Israel. I'm a Palestinian for hundreds of years. Ben Zvi, the late President, the second President, described my family as one of those families that never left Israel. Azari, the small people.
But he married the second wife in Israel?
In Israel, not in Israel the state, but under the mandate. Spharadic Jews could marry two women. Can you imagine to yourself, rabbis that I meet today in America, and the generations before them, march in every civil rights, women rights, rallies. They grew up in that environment, and I grew up in an environment with Doda Bukas and Doda Johara that didn't speak Hebrew. Doda Johara, I never had the opportunity to talk to her because she spoke just Arabic. Can you imagine the gap between my Israeli roots to the reform and the conservative movement? When I became a student at the Leo Beck school in Haifa, it's a high school.
It's a very well-known Israeli high school.
Well-known Israeli school, really one of the best schools in Israel. I discovered reform Judaism from Rabbi Bob Samuels, that came from America. I was fascinating. Wow, this is for me. This is me. Actually, this is my father, but he doesn't know that. I started my journey when I was 27 years old. I was elected to be the head of the reform movement in Israel. 27, young kid. I entered the office, and the budget was $250,000. Can you imagine to yourself, Daniel, What a failure. I'm talking about '86, '87. That was the investment of the reform movement in Israel.
It wasn't that different in the conservative movement, which I was a part of.
No, the same, Daniel, the same. Both movements are in the same boat regarding to Israel. Actually, maybe we'll talk about that later. I think the same story. Can you imagine this of the failure? I served there three years.
So you're saying the failure was of American-based reform?
Yeah, and invest in Israel.
How do you explain it?
I think they didn't understand that Israel will grow to what we can see today in Jerusalem or in Tel Aviv. They thought that, Well, maybe something will happen there.
Yeah, but this is it was already 91.
Yeah, but they didn't. After '67, when suddenly they discovered Israel, it was too late, and the leadership couldn't push the wagon. I think that part of, I don't know, to say a weakness is how late we came to Israel. By the way, we have to talk about the giant Abba Hillel Silver, that was so much part of the establishment of the state of Israel, his journey to the United Nation, his talk at the United Nations, his speech at the United Nation.
Also the Biltmore Conference.
Of course. Let's talk about Like Judah Leib Magnes, the Hebrew University. There are many reform rabbis that support a the Zionist story, but most of them put it aside, "Yeah, but we have to take care of our own community in this city and that place". By the way, Daniel, this is the story until today in the conservative and the reform movement. As a rabbi, you mainly take care of your community. I can't blame them.
Well, it's much worse than that because in the conservative and reform movement these days, if you speak about Israel...
Oh, well, maybe we'll talk about that. You're on very thin ice. Maybe we'll talk about that. That's why I visit, as you know, congregations for the last 40 years. A few times a year, I spoke at hundreds of congregations, reform, But in different places, I started to get the last 10 years instructions. Don't talk about this. Don't mention APAC. Don't mention J Street. Don't say this. Don't go to the left. Don't go to the right. Talk about Beit Daniel. I think that we miss the story. We're seeing the reform movement. I call to a revolution regarding to Israel. This is not that I'm saying to you today, "Well, let's accept everything that the Israeli government is doing", no, but we have to put Israel in the center of our movement as anti-Semitism, as the challenge of the life in America, the life in the world, intermarriage, whatever you call it in America. Yes, but we intend to put Israel aside, and it's a major mistake in our movement. Let's go to my life.
I want to go to your book because I really want to go into the details of, well, not the details, but I want you to give some examples of the counter examples. But tell us the thesis of the book in terms of what are you critiquing in the book?
A few things. The book, Daniel, was written to an Israeli audience. It's written in Hebrew. In Hebrew, but to Israelis- guys, you missed something. This is the main thing of this book. Judaism is a wonderful story, a beautiful story. Let's go to that story, but not from the root that you usually hear. The root is usually the Orthodox story. You hate it, you love it, you're part of it, you're against it, but this is the root. I said to Israelis, "Guys, it's more than that". Judaism is about progress. It's about change. The best time of Judaism was when our leaders were able to change and take Judaism from a disaster sometimes, or failure, or low points to, wow, to beautiful places. Take Raba Yohanan Ben Zekkai, the ability to see Judaism.
Raba Yohanan Ben Zekkai, who was at the time of the destruction of the second temple.
He was in Jerusalem. He saw what is going on in Jerusalem. He understood that the Roman will destroy Jerusalem, and he actually rebuilt Judaism. Judaism without temple, Judaism without the priests. He created the, not him, his generation created the Aggada, the pray book, the Bible, as we know it today.
Do you have a synagogue that emerges from that also?
Just name it. Judaism is not the same Judaism. Judaism that he created, Judaism after the second temple, and the one In the second temple, the first temple, it's not the same. The book is 370 pages of story of change, of story that most of the Israeli does not understand and doesn't have until today, without this book, the ability to experience, wow, yes, change is Judaism. No, usually for Israelis is "Ma She Haya Hu'Sheyiye". Try to translate that.
Whatever it was is what's going to be.
Moses brought the Torah from Sinai, you are not allowed to touch it. Ask a secular Israeli, ask the Israeli politician from the President down. All of them is stuck with that concept. The book, A, is trying to change that concept. Judaism is about change. Change brought Judaism to the high that we see today, who we are, and the present that you gave to the world. Judaism, it's about revolution. This is one story. The second story, I touched the halacha. You are told that halacha is Jewish law. It's always about change. I give to Israelis the ability to understand that debates, changing the halacha is part of our story. There's a book called Sefer Ha'Chilukim. How many Israelis, how many teachers, even rabbis, know about Sefer Ha'Chilukim? The book was published probably 1,500 or 1,600 years ago, tells about the difference between the Jews in Babylon and the Jews in Israel. They count dozens of different attitudes to Judaism, the way that we read the Torah.
There's hundreds of examples of that in the Talmud itself.
The Talmud itself. The book is about change and the ability to change, and they need to change. I think from an American perspective, reform perspective, it's offered to change the whole concept where reform Judaism or conservative Judaism was founded. You'll hear from reform rabbi or from those who talk about reform Judaism or conservative. Well, Germany, 18th century, 19th century, the debate is big. No, Judaism, as we know it. Reformed Judaism, as we know it, is from Abraham and Moses. They did reform. They and the people after them always were reformed Jews. We don't call it reform. Those who in the Talmud, the debate that differ each other, that brought different spirit that says, Well, no, we have to change it. They were reformed Jews. I take the book not just from the Talmud and from 14th, 15th century to the modern era as well. The debate between Sephardic Jews and Ashkenazic Jews, debate between Beit Shammai and Beit Hillel. The book is packed with hundreds of examples that most of the Israelis doesn't see, and the book is calling to them, "guys, open the book. Open your heart, open your mind, and understand that Judaism is beautiful." It's there for you. A secular Jew that says, Well, I'm not a good Jew because I don't do this. King David didn't do this and didn't do that. He is considered by many people as the Mashiach. And many others. The book is invitation to rediscover Judaism and understand that Judaism is about change. It's about to see the reality from a Jewish perspective.
The idea that all the way going back, you would call these people reform, I think that in a certain sense, yes, about the change part. I think the Pittsburgh platform is a turning point. When the Pittsburgh platform says that the ethical halacha is going to be binding, and the ritual halacha is not going to be binding. That is a major break in certain ways. So I just want to put it out there because I think some of the people listening are going to say, "Well, I know a little bit about reform Judaism, and I think that there was a major shift", and I would just chime in and say, I think there was a major shift. But your point is that there's something compelling about Judaism that we're missing here because of what Judaism has become publicly, politically, officially, governmentally, and so forth. And I couldn't agree with you more. I'll just say, to me, the tragedy of the Chief Rabbinate and all of the roots that it has sunk into Israeli society, which are not many, by the way, because it has power, but not influence. I mean, It has in a certain sphere, but nobody cares who the chief rabbis are. Most Israelis can't even begin to name the chief rabbis. I bet you most of our listeners can't name the Chief Rabbi. We're not in the era of Rabbi Gorin. We're not in the era of any of the greats. But the great tragedy is not that they happen themselves to be personally very right wing, or even that they're opposed to roles for women, or they may say things about Arabs that make your blood freeze and my blood freeze. All of that's bad. But for me, the great tragedy is that they have communicated to the wide swath of non-Orthodox Jews in Israel, and some Orthodox Jews, too, a sense that Judaism is just ugly. And therefore, what it does is it takes people, like people that I know. I mean, lots of young people, my kid's friends, and students here at Shalem, and lots of people who just grew up without it, they have no interest. I mean, obviously, if you're at Shalem, you're here because you have interest. But the vast majority of such people have no interest because you want to say, what's Judaism? Then they look at that and they say, okay, that's not for me. And what you're saying is that's not the authentic Judaism. Something else, something that's dynamic, that's moderate in its core is fundamentally what Judaism is all about, and you want them to reclaim their inheritance.
This is the book. It's a clear call to Israelis, as I said earlier, open your mind and heart and discover different Judaism. This is not Aryeh Deri. This is not the corruption stories that we hear again and again. This is not the spirit of Goldknopf and the settlers and establishment. Israelis are meeting the chief Rabbinate or the establishment of Judaism when they bury their parents or when they want to get married and they deal with kosher certificates. Try to hear the stories from Israelis, how they see, as you describe, they see the ugliness of the story.
What's the reception been to the book?
The reception is quite good. See the articles that were written after this book. See the reaction in the Israeli media, that's great. But again, the mission is so big, and this is just the beginning. The beginning is the communities that we, in the reform and the conservative movement, and the renewal movement in Israel are establishing all over the country. See the revolution that happened in the last 20 years? I will tell you my story. When I I have to Tel Aviv, to Bet Daniel in '91, I had 10 bar mitzvas. Beit Daniel, my community, my own community, small community, you describe the big community, it's a big community. We have 250 bar mitzvas a year.
So there's five every Shabbat.
Show me a synagogue in America. How many of them has 250 bar mitzvah a year? I'm doing an average year between 80-90 weddings. Show me another rabbi in America in that. You understand This is not just me. It's what happened all over the country. I said in Haaretz interview years ago, just build a synagogue, open the door, put a rabbi there, and you see the Israelis. The Israelis are looking for something. Most of them, if you ask them, they believe in God, they understand very well why they are here. Judaism is part of the story of Israel. Ask them, what do you think about brit, bar Mitzvah? Do you think that Jewish wedding is important? Yes, of course. Do you celebrate Hannukah, Passover, Yom Kippur? Of course. They don't have the channel, the avenue to find themselves in a reform and conservative synagogue. How many reformed, conservative synagogues were established in Israel? This is our failure.
How many are there?
60 reform and probably the same number of conservative. There are a few of the renewed synagogue. A city like Tel Aviv, that see every day around one million people entering to the city, needs to have at least a reform synagogue. You understand that the gap that exists there. This is a failure for the two major movement that did so much in America. Why your story was not brought to Israel. The book has at least two chapter that deals with American Jewry. The achievement that American Jewry achieved there in North America, women rights. Why women rights that was achieved there didn't enter to the Israeli society as a Jewish story.
And small swaths.
Yes. But women like Henrietta Sold, the women that established the women of reformed Judaism, the women that march in New York are shouting against the prices of meat, the belle of the civil society of America. Why we don't see that? Why we don't see the chief rabbinates in Israel, rabbis, marching as the rabbis in America, march for human rights, for the rights of almost every community. The book is full of stories about what was achieved there, how that was not translated to Israel. How come that Abraham Joshua Heschel was arrived to Israel by Dror Bondy like 20 years ago. For almost 50, 60 years, people like Heschel and many others were not brought to Israel. Why we didn't do that?
Even rabbi Jonathan Sacks, who's Orthodox and so forth, barely making it enough.
One of the leading thinkers in the Jewish world, I adore him. How come that our movements didn't build centers, education centers, the Hebrew Union College. It's not enough. We need to do more. The book is a call for you. American Jews that are hearing this podcast is do more. You have to do more. Israel became so important in the Jewish arena. Your Judaism will determine partially by what is done here in Israel. While the Israelis doesn't see your spirit, the energy, the wisdom that exists there, they adopt what they have. They adopt here Goldknopf and Deri and the settlers and Smotrich.
They don't adopt it. They just ignore it.
Yeah, ignore it. But when you want to hear a Jewish voice, you apply usually to those people and their rabbis. When the Israeli television will broadcast a Hannukah ceremony, lighting the candles, they usually won't invite the liberal, the reform, progressive, conservative rabbis. Usually, this is the call because we know Judaism is black and white. Being Orthodox, Haredi from one side, being a secular Israeli from the other side. The book is about telling them the story that you don't need to call yourself secular. You can call yourself a Jew, a full Jew. Judaism is not about the way that you put the kippah, it's more.
Let me ask you this. We are in one of the worst periods of Israeli history.
Oh, no doubt.
It may be the worst, probably the worst. It's the longest war at this point, and it's not anywhere near over, so it's going to be easily the longest war. Do you sense that this war has created an openness to a moderate kind of Judaism?
No doubt. What I saw during the last few years before the war, the years when the government tried to change the whole structure of democracy in Israel, brought so many people to the street, and so many people that understood that they don't want, they can't stand in our corner and say, Well, let's do our life. They decided to take care of themselves. Daniel, I think that most of the people that march in Kaplan, even before the war started, I'm talking about the judicial reform. Most of them won't enter anymore to and Orthodox synagogues.
Was that about religion, the anti-judicial reform thing? Why did it change the religious worldview?
Because they saw that religion became part of a certain fraction of the Israeli society, and they don't like it. They don't like the behavior of the chief rabbinate, the leading rabbis.
Let me just push back for a second. I could make the argument based on what you're saying that they move them away from Judaism. Did it move them towards a moderate Judaism?
It's on the way. It's a process.
Have you seen an influx of people since the beginning of the war?
Yes. The numbers of converts, the numbers of people coming to get married, the bar mitzvah families. You see and you hear kids. Kids are talking about that. I just had the bar mitzvah, three bar mitzvah that I conducted last Saturday. One of the kids spoke about it at the Synagogue. He said things that better than me, that I see Israel, and I feel that Israel is not in the right place and that I want to be connected.
But how is that connected to the war?
He learned from what he saw in the Israeli scene. When you go to war, part of the reason that you are in Israel, and you go to war and you defend Israel, is this fact that you're sitting here. Why are you sitting here? Because you're Italian, because you are French. No, because you're Israeli and you're Jewish, and this is your homeland. The story connected to who we are. If who we are is the settlers or Goldknopf or Deri, we don't want that. We want something that will be a different narrative, a narrative of liberalism, pluralism, democracy. The spirit of Megilat Ha'Atzmaut, in our Synagogue, Megilat Ha'Atzmaut is there.
The Declaration of Independence.
Yeah, it's next to Aron Ha'Kodesh, next to the Ark, part of the story. And what the Declaration says, we are taking the flame from the prophets of Israel. And where's the prophets of Israel. In their history, in the corruption of the government and those who doesn't go to serve in the Israeli army, this is the prophets of Israel that understood very well the complexity and the need to defend the country, to build a moral society. Where is the moral society? The behavior of the ministers of the Israeli government? Take the list. How many of them were corrupted? How many of them had stories in the court? How many of them had stories with the police? Israelis are not stupid. They're losing the faith that Judaism is the spirit, and we need to bring that spirit.
Okay. I have no doubt that you're right, that Israelis have completely lost, or many have lost their patience with the right, the corruption. I think the hostage issue, as you correctly point out, is going to push some people even further away. I want to make life difficult for people like you and me for a second. I want to ask how we got to this place, but I want to ask about us. Here's what I mean. I don't want to blame it right now on the reform in the conservative movements in America, which did not invest enough in Israel. There's no question that you're right. I mean, they invested paltry sums. There's this famous story about the Jewish Theological Seminary in 1945 at commencement, just a few months after Auschwitz is liberated, Israel is just a few years away from being founded. The Zionist movement is alive and well. Abba Hillel Silver, who you mentioned before, the leading reform rabbi, is working night and day to get this thing going. And the students at JTS, which was the headquarters of the conservative movement, and still is, asked the Chancellor Louis Finkelstein, to have Hatikva sung, and he refused. So there's a problem with norm and conservative Judaism in America for a very long time. In some ways, it's gotten a little better. In some ways, it hasn't. But I don't want to talk about them. And I don't want to talk about the right wing in Israel who are exactly what you've said. I want to ask about us, and I want to make it a very wide us. An us, that includes Israeli reform Jews, Israeli conservative Jews, Israeli liberal Orthodox Jews, like in Jerusalem, the congregations called Shira Hadashah and Haqqal.
Kol Ha'Neshama, which is more reform.
I want to ask about people like Benny Lau, Rabbai Benny Lau, who was absolutely Orthodox without any question, liberalism is a key part of his Judaism. Rabbi David Bigman of Yeshivat Maale Gilboa is also a very serious Orthodox rabbi, whose Judaism is open and moderate in its tone and its reach. I want to ask about that whole we, from the reform movement all the way to these Orthodox figures, and ask, how did we allow the train to leave without us? How were we 75 years into the Jewish state? And instead of blaming it on the leadership of the reform movement and the conservative in America, we're talking about how ugly the Orthodox are, and I'm part of this. I'm blaming myself, too. How did we not recapture the center of the Israeli stage with a moderate, engaging, embracing, loving Judaism? And now what can we do to get it back?
Let's start with the old story. Why? The answer, as I see it, is tied to the question of where the population of Israel came from. From where? Most of the Israelis came to Israel from countries without democracy and pluralism and without even the beginning of the story that bring that spirit to Judaism. Jews that came from North Africa, from Russia, Ukraine, and let's name it, doesn't have that ethos of democracy. Sometimes we fail to understand the Jewish history. I read a beautiful article once about the Jews in Warsaw. There were more butchers that serve non-kosher food than those who serve kosher food in Warsaw. Can you imagine to yourself? When we see the Jews in Poland, we see usually the Orthodox side of them. No, Jews were everywhere. When they came to Israel, they came without that ethos of democracy and pluralism, women rights. Who talked about women rights in those countries. This is one. Second, it's the fact that leadership of our movements didn't came to Israel and didn't take the leadership. It's the same story was that Sephardic Jews. Sephardic Jews, the leadership, the elite of the Sephardic Jewish community from Morocco, from Algier, from Egypt. They moved to France, they moved to other places, and they didn't come here. A community without leaders. Who was there in '48, '49, '50s, '60s to carry the voice of pluralism within Judaism? You can't give me a name. One name, here in Israel.
Right. No, you're right. I'm thinking I can't think about anybody.
No, nobody. Nobody. And this is a major issue. And then the third issue is the agreement that Ben Gurion led to some kind of a coalition that you built with the Orthodox establishment. Give me the power to overcome Jabotinsky and his followers, and Begin then and his followers. And I will give you a little bit of money and a little bit of achievements.
You won't have to go to the army.
Don't go to the army, 400 and, then the numbers grew up step by step. You lead kosher issues in Israel. You will marry people. You take care of divorce in Israel. You bury people. You will be the Chief Rabbi. Step by step, this investment of the state of Israel in that community became enormous. Can you imagine to yourself that Chabad in Israel gets from the Israeli government 600 million shekels, it's $180 million a year. Can you imagine to yourself what a reform, a conservative movement could do with that? Just 10% of that money in Israel. You understand what the state of Israel invest in those organizations? How can I compete in Tel Aviv with dozens and dozens and dozens of rabbis that are paid by the government, their institutions are built by the government, and the the maintenance of the synagogue, it's somehow come from the government. How can we compete with that?
Okay, I hear you.
Take another story is the failure to tell to Israelis that we're authentic Jews. This is a major failure. This book tried to change. A failure of our leadership. Again, we tell to Israelis, reformed Judaism and conservative Judaism was established in Germany. Many Israeli sees us as an import from America. Why to import Judaism from America? Why to import Judaism from Germany? Who needs Judaism from Germany while we are here, this is the Jewish state. Here, King David, just a few hundred meters from here, King David marched. This book, my book says, No, reform Judaism, conservative Judaism, the way that we see it was established in Israel. It's a major failure. I hear that again and again, go to the server that was done so many years by the Jewish agency, by different institutions, by us, the reform movement. How do you see reform Judaism? Import from America. We're not import. I am part of a generation of Israelis. As I said, I grew up here. I'm coming from a Sephardic family. I served in the Israeli army. Nobody can tell me you are an import. No, I'm an Israeli, authentic Israeli. This is the revolution that my generation brings to the Israeli community and says, Wow, we somehow missed this story. We have to bring this story to the front. Don't tell us that we are import. Don't give us the story that the only way to be Jewish is Orthodox, and the outcome is those who doesn't, the seculars. No, you can be reform, conservative. You can be part of Benny Lau community. You're no less than Goldknopf. You are no less than Aryeh Deri.
What you said here, I thought was really fascinating. You gave basically three or four reasons that I've just never made myself a list of bullet points in my mind. I think this was super helpful as to how we got to where we got. A, you said an overwhelming majority of the people who came to Israel in the early years to build the state came from places where there was no tradition of democracy or liberalism, et cetera. It raises the question, by the way, for a different conversation, what would have happened if a million American Jews would have come here in the '40s?
Israel will be a different place.
Probably. Okay, so The first point was that those people did not come, and the people that did come did not come from democratic environments, number one. Number two, you said the leadership of the liberal movements abroad did not come. Third was the governmental getting into bed with those powers. Ben Gurion, by the way, did it not because he loved it. He wanted to show the United Nations at the beginning, and then the Americans afterwards that Israel was not going to fall apart. And therefore, to stop the right wing religious parties from rebelling, he just was willing to pay them off. He didn't understand, of course, what it was going to lead to in 2025. That was the third reason. And then the fourth reason was that we've made this argument. We have, with great pride, talked about how our origins go all the way back to Germany. But ironically, that's a boomerang because it makes you seem like you're an import, and an Israelis want Israeli authenticity. I think that's a fascinating.
I can add another reason.
Your fifth one.
I think that Ben Gurion in his community, in a certain way, saw that reform, conservative Judaism is important, but we don't need them here in Israel. We will create our own story. We'll create our own story. We'll create our own liberal Judaism, our own progressive Judaism. The best story that I can tell you is the story of how we celebrate Yom Ha'Atzmaut.
You have a book on that?
Yeah, I wrote a book about Yom Ha'Atzmaut. My father died on Yom Ha'Atzmaut. I came to the hospital, and the guy from the Burial Society, says, Well, the funeral would take place at 2:00, something like this.
The same day, obviously.
Yeah, Yom Ha'Atzmaut, the Independence Day. I said, This is a holiday. The guy says, "this is not a holiday". I had a huge debate. How can you force a family to bury the father on Yom Ha'tzmaut? No way. I decided to write a book about the concept of what is Yom Ha'Atzmaut. Ben Gurion failed in '49 with the way that he celebrate Yom Ha'Atzmaut. They did an army march in the streets of Tel Aviv. The march didn't march, actually. The soldier came to Tel Aviv. They started to march, and the whole community ran and hug the soldier, men and women.
Well, they had parades for a number of years till they stopped them.
The parades failed. He said to himself, What can I do? He forced a group of writers, poets, to sit in the army base in Tel Aviv and to write aggada for Yom Ha'Atzmaut. He decided that Yom Ha'Atzmaut will be a Pasach, a Passover of our day. They did a wonderful job. He liked it. The army planned to distribute it a few days before Yom Ha'Atzmaut. Ads in the newspaper, to the housewife, how to create the Yom Ha'Atzmaut dinner. Don't forget that those days, you couldn't get food. It was stamps, so how can you turn the stamps to Yom Ha'Atzmaut celebration, no, special dinner. The guys that were in what we call today Mafdal, Smotrich. They came with Rabbi Goren to Ben Gurion home in Ben Gurion Street and he says, If the Agada will come out, we are going out from the government. The Aggada was never distributed. Ben Gurion, and I can give you a list of few other events, he tried to create his own ethos of Judaism. Different celebration. How you celebrate Chag Ha'Shavuot? How you celebrate Tu B'Shvat? How you celebrate holidays that were in a certain way celebrated outside of Israel, but now we are in our promised land. And what is the story? And you know what happened? Step by step, Ben Gurion said, Well, it's too heavy. It's too complicated. And then '77, new government, and the government that are tied more to the right. Somehow, all this journey to create a secular, a liberal, socialist type of Judaism just disappeared. The Israeli type of reform Judaism disappeared. I think that right now, as we asked earlier, this is the window that was open in the last few years that we have to enter. This is the time for reform, conservative, liberal, modern Jews, those who really care about what will happen in Israel, to invest in Israel, build more synagogues, publish more books, establish centers for education. Do that. The reform and the conservative movement are approaching to an election in North America for the WZO. How many reform and conservative Jews will go to vote? So few of them. We need to be there. We need to be part of the ethos of the Israeli society. We need to help us. You need to help You know why? In a certain point, the equation will change. Reformed Jews from Israel will help reform Jews in America, in the world. It will happen quite fast. In the next 10 years, you'll see that the equation will change.
Well, the majority of the world's Jews will be in Israel in 10 years.
Even reformed Jews. Even reformed Jews. The potential of reformed Jews, conservative Jews, what you call liberal Jews, egalitarian Jews, are here, not in North America anymore.
I want to ask you one last question, and not about reform or I want to ask you about orthodoxy for a second. There are, as you know better than anybody, there are some very liberal voices in the orthodox world whose orthodoxy is not in dispute. I mean, Benny Lau, nobody argues whether or not he's orthodox. When they hear rabbi Benny Lau speak, they know they're listening to an authentic Orthodox rabbi. If they were to hear rabbi David Bigman speak, and he's much less in the public eye than Benny Lau is, they would know that they're listening to an authentic rabbi. He's a Rosh Yashiva, he's the head of the Yashiva, he's the real deal. Just forget conservative and reformed Judaism for a second. You, as a very astute observer of Israeli society, can the Benny Laus and David Bigmans of the world retake orthodoxy in Israel?
I think yes.
What's the platform for reaching thousands and thousands of Israelis to get them to rethink what orthodoxy means? How are they going to do it?
The platform is the same platform for reform and conservative Jews to invest in the secular Israeli society and move the secular Israeli society to the right place, to feel that they are Jewish, no less than the establishment, no less than the Orthodox and the Haredi Jewish community, those to the right and to the world of the establishment, and to make sure that the Israeli government will allocate more to their education centers to stop the flood that reshape again and again that establishment that became, I think, I don't want to use the word cancer, but it's very close to that within the Israeli society. They need to focus on that concept. I think that they need to build a covenant, and I'm using the word covenant in in purpose with the secular Israeli community and with the reform and the conservative movement to build a big wave that will say, well, guys, Judaism is better when than what we can see in Israel. Judaism is better than those kids that are running in the territory throwing stones. Judaism is better than the corruption. Judaism is about us building a moral society here in Israel. Judaism is about being part of the world, being part of the nations of the world, trying to bring light to the world as the prophets of Israel. And I think Rabbi Lau, as Rabbi Sacks, as rabbi Hecshel, as we reform, conservative rabbis, have in a certain point, as you, we have the same agenda. We have the same world. You do this, and I do that. You pray this, and I will pray that. But we are there. So I feel that this is the time to build that covenant. And again, using the word covenant of those who wants to bring Israel and Judaism to normality.
Rabbi Meya Azari, one of the leading reform rabbis of the State of Israel, the author of the recently published, Leading the Way Jewish Leadership Brings Change, out now in Hebrew, soon in Russian, and hopefully in English, not too long from now.
We'll do that.
Thank you so much for taking the time.
MA (49:47)
Pleasure. Thank you very much, Daniel.
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