Before we get to today’s podcast, I’m taking the liberty of remembering a treasured teacher, colleague and friend.
Rabbi Dr. David Ellenson, who served for many years as the President of the Hebrew Union College, died in New York one year ago this week, in the early months of the war. His death left me wordless, and though I’d intended to write something about him last year, I couldn’t.
A year later, I still feel his absence more than I might have imagined I would. I often recall the first time I met David, when as a Ph.D. student at USC, I signed up for a course with him. His warmth was apparent immediately; his profound intelligence and prodigious knowledge instantaneously thereafter.
When I was wrapping up my Ph.D., in which I’d written a bit on Jewish legal rulings on conversion to Judaism in European Orthodoxy, David suggested that we do a book together. I’d written about Rabbi David Z. Hoffmann, while he had written his thesis about Rabbi Esriel Hildesheimer, who’d been Rabbi Hoffmann’s teacher. “We’ll take my chapters on Hildesheimer, your chapters on Hoffmann, add another legal authority or two, do an Intro and a Conclusion, and we’ll have a book,” he said.
It seemed like a great idea. During those decades, though, he became President of HUC. I moved to Israel. We both had more kids. And so on.
So it took us twenty years to write the book. Twenty.
While we were both proud of the book, what I really valued about it was the hundreds of hours we spent pouring over Jewish legal texts, editing, and more often than not … talking and laughing about everything but the book.
Hence, twenty years …
David Ellenson loved the people of Israel, the Torah of Israel and the State of Israel with every fiber of his being. The war in which we are still mired caused him no end of anguish and worry, and the conversations we had about that continue to reverberate as I watch the conflict progress. I so wish that he’d lived to see that maybe, just maybe, things will be OK.
David Ellenson was a giant of a human being, a man of kindness and warmth with a boundless heart, and a prodigious scholar.
On this one year anniversary of his passing, I miss him more than ever. I thus take this moment to thank him, once again, for being my friend and my teacher.
Today, we continue with the next installment of our “The state of the State” series, assessing Israel’s strengths and weaknesses a year into this war, and the sources of keen observers’ wellsprings of optimism and causes for concern.
Our guest today is Dr. Masua Sagiv, who has appeared on Israel from the Inside in the past, and we’re delighted to welcome her back.
Dr. Masua Sagiv is a Senior Faculty member of the Shalom Hartman Institute based in the San Francisco Bay Area and the Koret Visiting Assistant Professor of Jewish and Israel Studies at the Helen Diller Institute, U.C. Berkeley.
Sagiv earned her doctorate in law from Tel-Aviv University, where she wrote her dissertation on the topic of law and social change in the Halachic Feminist struggle in Israel. Her dissertation won the Ben Halpern Award for Best Dissertation in Israel Studies. Masua has an LL.B. in law and political science (magna cum laude) from Bar-Ilan University and an LL.M. (with honors) from Columbia University School of Law. Her book, Radical Conservativism (in Hebrew), on the Halachic Feminist struggle in Israel, will be published by the end of the year by Carmel publishing House.
A full bio for Dr. Sagiv can be found here.
The link at the top of this posting will take you to the full recording of our conversation; below you will find a transcript for those who prefer to read, prepared for our paid subscribers.
Our guest today is someone that I've had the pleasure of interviewing before on Israel from the Inside, somebody that I had the pleasure of having lunch and coffee with in Israel this past summer when the war was already well underway, and for whom I have a tremendous amount of regard. Dr. Masua Sagiv is a senior faculty member of the Shalom Hartman Institute. She's based now in the San Francisco Bay Area and is the Koret Visiting Assistant Professor of Jewish and Israel Studies at the Helen Diller Institute at Berkeley. She's a scholar. Her scholarly work, and we're going to put her entire bio on the notes so you can read it in full, focuses on the development of contemporary Judaism in Israel as a culture, religion, nationality, and as part of Israel's identity as a Jewish and democratic state. And it's because of her focus on Israel as a Jewish and democratic state that we actually interviewed her in the good old days when the only issue that Israel was facing was the meltdown of its judicial system. And because this is an area of her expertise, she came on and taught us a tremendous amount.
But I've invited Dr. Sagiv to do something a little bit very different today. A little bit very different is a contradiction in terms, but very different. I want to hear her as an Israeli, as an Israeli woman, a wife, a mom, a scholar, somebody who's now in the Bay Area, but we'll be back here not that long in the future as part of the State of the State series, to talk the thoughtful Israelis left and right, religious and secular, people who've been on the podcast before, people who've not been on the podcast before, people who want a hostage deal, people who don't want a hostage bill, people that love Bibi, people that don't. I mean, really everybody. And just to hear their souls, not so much to talk about their academic work, but to hear their souls and their feelings about Israel as a state going forward. And I'll just share with you, Masua, I got an email about 15 minutes before we went on from a student of ours who just got back from reserve duty, who's had a really rough time and wrote, I just need to talk to you about my future and the country's future.
And I don't know what he wants, but those are the kinds of emails that you never used to get. Nobody ever used to say, I need to talk about the country's future. And all of a sudden, everybody wants to talk about the country's future. So before we get in, just give people a sense of the woman that they're hearing from, where you grew up, how you grew up, family, all of that, and then we'll jump in.
Yeah. So First of all, thank you so much, Danny, for having me here. I told you before, the daily emails from you are really grounding for me, and it's an honor to be here again. I grew up in Holon in Israel. To a religious Zionist family.
People that know Israel would know that it was the first thing, like Masua, it had to be a religious Zionist family, right? I mean, almost certainly.
Yeah, it has to be a religious Zionist I'm a family. I'm the fourth of four girls. I went to school in Tel Aviv, and then I went to the university to study law. I studied my second degree in law in the US at Columbia Law School, and then I did my PhD at Tel Aviv University. I'm married. I have four kids ranging on ages between 15 and 4, two girls and two boys. And I think you said about the future.
I don't remember talking about the future that often before our life changed. But now, I think it's almost daily.
Talking about the future in what sense?
Everything that I do, I teach and I write, and And I teach and write about law and gender and Jewish peoplehood and Judaism, all of these things. Everything that I do, I do because I think about the world and the country that we are leaving to our children, I mean, my children, but also other children.
My children, too.
Yeah, your children.
My grandchildren, all that.
All of our children. And I'm thinking a lot about our responsibility as parents, our responsibility as educators. So I'm thinking about the fact that I have two boys that are getting closer to get enlisted to the military. My daughter is very close to that age, too. In two years, she's going to be in the military. I'm thinking about the type of country, what would be... We had so many options growing up, and the world seemed so open. I grew up in the 1990s. It is true that I was always growing up politically. I think that I found myself always on the losing side, politically. During the 1990s, I was more right wing. And it was the 1990s, it was Rabin and it was Barak. And then when I became more center and center left, I started the political The map changed completely. But we had so many... The future really seemed open, and that's not really the case anymore.
When you say it seemed open, what do you mean? Do you mean socioeconomically, that religious opportunities were expanded? What do you mean by open? How did it feel to you as a young woman in Israel of the '90s? When you say open, what felt open?
So definitely socioeconomically. I could choose to be whoever I wanted to choose. I think my parents and their parents have worked so, so hard. My two of my four grandparents were Holocaust survivors. All four. All four. It was A very big influence on both of my parents. My maternal grandfather, who was a rabbi before the Holocaust and who lost all of his family. He lost a wife and three kids during the Holocaust. When they came to Israel, he worked in physical work in supermarkets in order to allow for my mom to buy all the books that she wants and to go to medical school. My parents, too, they didn't go abroad and travel as often as I do. The options from generation to generation in general became broader, became larger, and I felt it.
So there was socioeconomic. What else did you feel like the world was blooming like a flower? The petals were opening up. What else did you feel?
I think also religiously. I grew up in a religious Zionist family. I didn't have access to a lot of the things in our corpus of texts that my daughter has. My daughter, who was bat mitzvah three years ago, she went up to the Torah. I don't know how to say it. She. She was called to the Torah.
She got an aliyah to the Torah.
Yeah, she was called to the Torah as an Orthodox young woman, in a way, and my father stood by her, and he taught her, which is something that I would never have imagined happening before. Things are happening, and You don't have to choose, of course, this pathway, but you could. It is open to you if you wanted.
I'll just interrupt you for a second and tell you my daughter's bat mitzvah parsha is Lech Lecha, which when you and I are speaking, at least just a few days ago, she's now 38. We made her bat mitzvah right when we got to Israel in 1998. We'd been here only for a few weeks. She didn't really have many friends. She just invited her whole class. That's what you do. I taught her her parsha, and she read the whole parsha. The next morning, on Sunday morning, I had a woman who was a phenomenal woman who still is around, and thank God, and friendly. And she was my boss. And we had, of course, invited her to the bat mitzvah. And she had brought her, must have been around army age or maybe college-age daughter with her, just, Come. And my boss said to me on Sunday morning, I'll never forget this as long as I live. I mean, it's already been 26 years, so I'm probably not going to forget it ever. She said to me, Look, it was very lovely, and Mazal tov, and all of that. But my daughter pointed something out that I hadn't thought of.
My boss said to me, She said, What you did to your daughter was very unfair. I said, What did we do? She said, She clearly loved reading Torah. And she just shined. She was a glow. And you gave her a skill she just can't use. Oh, wow. Twenty-six years later, she reads Torah very, very often. There are within walking distance of my home, probably six Minyanim where she could read Torah. Some of them are more or less Orthodox and egalitarian. Some of them are more... I mean, the world has really opened up. I mean, so you're a little bit older than my daughter. And the difference between your age and my daughter's age, just the whole world. So I'm just echoing what you're saying. I mean, we really felt there that was an enormous explosion. So the socioeconomic, there was religious. How did the country feel to you growing up as a young woman in the '90s?
I think that we were in a sense, and I think it's a general feeling of the '90s, which was misleading, but the sense was we are moving forward, whatever forward means. We are moving forward. Things are going to be settled one way or another. We're going to have a settlement with the Palestinians, and we're going to have a settlement internally, and the country is going to be liberal and more as if As if things are progressing all the time. And of course, it's misleading because it's a simplistic way of thinking about the world. We can analyze, and I'm sure we'll analyze some of these things, but it's just the feeling of openness and moving forward. That is something that that was a mirage.
Well, was it a mirage? Was it a mirage or was it real and then got destroyed? Which one of those two was it? Because those are different.
I think it definitely was a mirage because I think that all of the issues that we are experiencing now are not new. And I think that the illusion that we can solve all of these things and that we are only progressing is what it is. It's an illusion because we didn't really listen to all of the voices in Israel. I think that the voice of my group is included. I'm saying we as if I'm part of the hegemony in a way. Yes, it was a mirage. It was like a band-aid on on something that just went on a wound that wasn't treated well. And I get the sentiment of why it's not treated well, but it just blew up in our face.
So let's bullet point it. Tell me some of the things that you felt growing up in the '90s that you feel either were mirage or they broke, or give me three or four or five things that when you look at the country now, they're not what you thought they were for whatever reason. Yeah.
So first of all, again, and I'm saying growing up in the '90s, but I think that a lot of this is a bit later because as I said, I grew up in a religious Zionist family. In the '90s, I was pretty right wing. Not that there's anything wrong with being. I went more center left, I think, ever since. But Israel could be liberal is one.
By liberal, let us make clear, you don't mean left wing. You mean liberal in the liberalism sense of liberal, right? The rights of the individual, a judiciary that functions, freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of assembly. I mean, you're talking about Bill of Rights liberal, not liberal, left wing.
I'm talking about Bill of Rights, justice, freedom, equality. Yes, absolutely. That's what I'm talking about, which were definitely the basis of the classic traditional Likud party. Dan Meridor, Miki Eitan, who we just said goodbye to this last week, Mikhael Eitan, a member of the Knesset. They were very much liberal.
So was Menahem Begin.
Absolutely. Menahem Begin, also from earlier. So liberal. The second is obviously the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And the third, which is very and I think encompasses a few things is the whole Jewish democracy conversation, religion and state, which encompasses both the future of the different societies within it. So the Haredim and the country and religious Zionism as a group and the country. And also what do we mean? And that's something that we actually did speak about when we spoke at the time. What does it mean that Israel is a your state. Right.
So let's unpack. The first one was the notion of Israel being a liberal state. Liberal, again, not left wing, just make sure our listeners understand, but liberal in the sense of a Western democracy with all of the protections and the qualities and rights and limits that that implies. Where do you think we are now on that?
Well, maybe on that note, I would say that I think we're a part of a global trend of really pushing back against liberalism. I think actually from a very good reason, because liberalism, when it speaks about equality and about justice, It's completely blind to people's identity. That's the positive side of it, but that's also the negative side of it. Because as one of the students told me last year, the past year was very different than anything I've ever done. So part of what I'm doing is teaching why Israel is not committing genocide in Gaza. In one of those classes, I said something like that we are allowed, morally, it is morally justified to prefer our own people over other people's. It doesn't mean that That it's okay to target them or kill them or whatnot. But it is morally justified to prefer your own people over a different people. And I got such pushback on this. So in a sense, I think this is maybe the core, this is the greatest manifestation of the failure of liberalism today, is that you are not morally justified to prefer your own family, your own identity, your own your own culture.
Which is why, as you put it, liberalism is on the retreat all over the world. I mean, in French politics, in Austrian politics, in Polish politics, in Hungarian politics, in Italian politics, obviously, Donald Trump just won the American election. So this is obviously a global thing. Now, how do you see it playing out in Israel? Are we moving towards the right or are we becoming illiberal?
I think that this is a case of being complicit, I think, is the right word that I want to say, because on the one hand, yes. I mean, Israel is not moving towards the right. Israel is mostly right wing, security-wise. I'm not talking about socioeconomic or libertarian.
How do you say it? Libertarian.
Libertarian-wise. But security-wise and identity-wise, Israel is very right wing. And I think that's also true among Israeli liberals. So the problem is that some Israeli liberals are really insisting on staying, not shifting and not understanding there's a global trend and there's a reason for the global trend. So they're almost forcing the rest of the people to reject all of liberalism. You see, because if I have I have to choose between giving equality to my daughter or keeping my daughter Jewish, I'll say I'll keep my daughter Jewish. And I say, you can have both. I mean, I want my daughter to be committed to her Judaism and to her religion and to have equality. But even if I have to choose, I'll probably choose Judaism over equality. But that's part of the ailment of liberalism throughout the world. And I think that in Israel we're seeing it. And yes, this causes Israel to be more illiberal. And that's why it's complicit. And please don't get me... It's not my aim to only blame liberals for this. No, I understand. I think it comes... There are very strong illiberal forces that are powers in Israel that have no interest in equality, not gender equality, not between Jews and non-Jews for different reasons.
And they're pulling Israel towards this. And I just think that the response by Israeli Liberals is not good enough.
Okay. Yeah. The response by Israeli Liberals, by the way, is very similar to the response of American Liberals. And I don't want to go into the whole American election here, but one thing is very clear, American Democrats just didn't listen to anybody. They just were listening in an echo chamber, and they did all kinds of studies of statistics and this and voting patterns, but they didn't actually listen to the voices of millions and millions of people who voted for Donald Trump. One can agree, one can disagree, whatever, but they just didn't listen. I think you're right, that's what's happening here. When the editor of Haaretz can say what the editor of Haaretz said not all that long ago and talk about terrorists as freedom fighters and whatever, you're just disconnected from a way in which many Israelis who are on the ground here feel. Okay, so we have the liberalism issue. You mentioned the Israeli-Palestinian issue. Your daughter is 15, you said. In 20 years, she's going to be 35. I'm an excellent mathematician. If you had to guess, Where is the Israeli-Palestinian issue going to be in 20 years? Now, obviously, we don't know where it's going to be in three weeks, but if you just had a guess by your kishkes (gut).
I can't guess, but I know... But I can draw two possible futures. One possible future is what we have now, but worse, meaning we are even more isolated as a country. We are in the mud of half of the countries that are around us, and we are nowhere near to solving this problem. That's one future. Sounds great. Second future.
What? Sounds great. Thanks.
I know. I didn't even say in this future if we got the hostages back or not. Second future is I don't think it's going to be a pink roses future, but it's a future when we are part of a coalition. We're part of a coalition of a regional coalition within the Middle East of countries that are willing to work with us, that are willing, that that are moderate Islamic countries. I don't think we will see in 20 years a Palestinian state. I think our security needs are still going to be too great for a Palestinian state, unfortunately. But I think I would say two keys to where we'll be in 20 years, one on the Jewish Israeli side and one on the Palestinian side. On the Jewish Israeli side, whether we will really understand that these two people are inextricable, meaning- Nobody's going anywhere. No one's going anywhere. No one's going anywhere. And we have to figure out what to do without dreaming of peace because no one loves us enough for peace or without dreaming of getting rid of them because no one's going... No, I mean, no one's going anywhere. The second key in the hands of the Palestinians is get out of a victim consciousness that doesn't allow any moving forward and building something new.
Unfortunately, each of us can do that needed key for the other. And again, unfortunately, all of the international elements right now are not motivating each of us to do that. Quite the opposite. And you've had some conversations in your podcast that also speak to that. But I really think these are the two keys in order to figure out what will be our situation in 20 years.
So I want to see something else because we're not quite a generation apart, but we're close. And in many respects, we're from similar backgrounds, but you grew up in Israel. I didn't grow up in Israel. And you said Nobody's going anywhere. Well, it's obviously the Jews aren't going to leave, and it's always the Palestinians aren't going to leave. But I want to talk about a certain swath of the Jews. Your friends are all professionals, or I'm going to guess 90% of your friends are professionals. There's doctors, there's lawyers, there's professors, there's engineers, there's probably a couple of generals. That's the crowd that you guys roll with when you're in Israel, I'm going to guess. Do you hear murmurings among your friends about whether or not to stay? And do you hear murmurings among your friends about whether or not they think that their kids will raise their kids in Israel?
Let me tell you something even more than That's what we did.
When we were in Israel in the summer, I would say 90% of our people that we met with, friends, told us, Don't come back.
Stay there. At least, it doesn't have to be for always. It can be for a few years, but stay there. Don't come back. You did the big step, even though no one thought. We're here visiting, but don't come back. And that's something that I have not expected. I know I'm in the groups, and people are, I know what's going on, but that was a surprise. So a lot of people are talking about we have friends who already did that, too. Who Who've left. Who've left. People that the state of Israel will miss dearly.
What are their professions? Just as you think of them as people, what are their professions?
High tech, medicine.
We have a huge doctor shortage here, by the way. And by the way, in those moderate Arab countries who you're talking about wanting to be in relationship with us, want to be in relationship with us, primarily not because they're Zionists, but because we have tech to offer. I mean, that's bottom line what we're going to have to offer. It's not going to be treason. It's not going to be water. And then I understood in getting an alia to the Torah like your daughter did or my daughter did, they want tech. So the doctors are leaving the tech people. I mean, I don't know what percentage it is, but you hear about a flow.
I don't think it's irreversible, by the way.
I agree with you. Now tell our listeners, I'm assuming from the way that you said it, when your friends said to you, Stay in the Bay Area, I'm assuming that your instinct was, well, I get why you're saying that, but that's not happening. What draws you home? I mean, I'm assuming you guys are coming back this year, next year, whenever. What's drawing you back? Obviously, you have friends, you have family, you have your siblings, you're Israelis. But when you hop on that plane, what are you saying to yourself about what the future holds and what your role in it is?
I want to tell you before I say what brings us back is to tell you that it's not as simple as I thought it would be. It wasn't the right away. We said, Oh, what are you talking about? Because I get it and because we had these conversations. What does bring us back. Other than Israel being our home? In the most basic sense, Israel is our home. That's number one. Sorry. And all of our families are there, and it's very substantial. That's number one.
Number two is there is something about living in Israel, about growing, about raising your kids in Israel, that what happened the day after October 7th, when everyone just went or on October 7th itself, that everyone just took whatever they could and went and tried to save as many people as possible, or even the people who stayed abroad have become basically soldiers in Hasbarah.
Telling Israel's story.
Of telling Israel's story. It's not a coincidence. It's not a coincidence. I love my students here, and I meet with a a lot of young American Jews, and they're absolutely great. But there's something different about the way that we raise our kids as Israelis to know that they're a part of something bigger than themselves and something bigger than their families. I'm speaking about it, and I realized that there could be a really grave cost for raising our kids that way. I know that. I know that I'm not going to sleep at night for a long time soon enough. But there's something about an And it builds resilience, and it builds a character of really extraordinary people. So that's number two. Number three is something more general. And it comes from a conversation that I had with a Jewish Jewish professional here in the States, and he told me something beautiful, which I'll share. He said, We were born, we were lucky to be born in a period that is uncharacteristic for the Jewish people where we have sovereignty. Now, I don't know what will happen with this project. Will it succeed at the end in 100, 200, 300 years from now or not.
But the fact is that we were born with the opportunity to participate in this project, and I will choose not to do that. I think it's I think it speaks to something very deep in what I believe. Now, I think that you can be a very loving Zionist outside of Israel, too. But I was born in Israel, and I'm very grateful to the opportunity that I have here for many different reasons. But yes, Israel is my home, and to be able to participate and influence, hopefully, on this unbelievable project of the Jewish people is a gift that I'm not willing to not take.
It's very moving to hear How do you say that. I think, by the way, a lot of people here feel that way, and that's why the response on October 7th and October 8th was what it was. And your four grandparents can all tell you what it's like not to be able to defend yourself. So I force myself to remind myself when my son gets called up, when my son doesn't get called up, when our friends' kids get called up, when we've had a few cases when our friends' kids get badly hurt. There's a lot of horrible costs here, but not that long ago, and obviously in the lifetime, if your grandparents and my grandparents, when it happened to the Jews, nothing could be done. And so that's also a profound change. But to hear you talk about that is really very profound. Let's just talk very quickly about some bullet points. Tell me how optimistic you are that they can be changed, fixed. We have a political situation here. We have a Haredi situation here. We have an Israeli-Arab situation here, which is not terrible. It's not like it was in 2021, but it's a tension.
So let's just go through it quickly. We have a political situation here. I'm just guessing you and I have not talked politics, but I'm just guessing that you're not a huge fan of the way this government is comporting itself. Are you optimistic that we can turn the corner?
Last week was the day when Netanyahu fired Gallant. That day, I was completely livid. Then the day after, I was completely numb. When I'm looking at last week, I know that I cannot allow myself to be numb. Now, why do I say that? Because we have experienced in the past year, politically speaking, a long list of events that each of them would have to change something politically in a dramatic way, and none of them changed. So it feels like everything, like something incredible, incredibly bad happens, and no one pays politically any cost. I think that's part of the reason of an ongoing despair. That's, by the way, also part of... That's an element of dictatorship. I don't think we're in a dictatorship, but it is an element of dictatorship. The fact that you feel like nothing will change. Nothing you will do will change. It's the sense of helplessness. I think we need to fight this feeling, A, because we're not there yet. I think we can speak about strategy, whether the strategy of the people who are objecting the government is the right strategy right now or not the right strategy right now to block roads, to go on a lot of of protests.
Some of these things are important to speak about, but we have to believe that change is possible, because if we don't believe that change is possible, then we have two options. One, to sit and cry all day, and that's not really productive. Number two is to immigrate.
Or not come back as your friend said to you.
Which is not really also productive, I think. If you see your future in Israel, and if I see my kids' future in Israel, Well, then I have to believe that change is possible. And just on a practical note, the majority of Israelis over and over again say that they want political change. So it's not impossible. Yes, there are horrible things happening right now. And yes, I hope we will be able to fix all of the things that are happening one after the other. But it is important to note, the majority of Israelis want a political change. And I think it's not productive to be despaired, even though there are good reasons to be despaired.
Haredim, army?
I don't think that's even the biggest question.
No, but it is a question.
No, I'm saying... Yeah, let me rephrase myself. I think, yes, it's one of the biggest questions of the country moving forward, from what I hear from a lot of people 10 years younger than me within religious Zionists, the rage- It's rage.
It's absolute rage. It's becoming hatred. Absolutely rage.
Yes. Rage going towards hatred from specifically the religious Zionists- Who are paying the highest price of dead people and wounded people in this war. Exactly. Unproportional price. We didn't even see any of this rage yet because as as those people tell me, because we're in reserve right now, so we don't have time to really express this rage. But I think that the question around the Haredim is actually a bigger question to them that they have to answer towards themselves. It's not just the enlistment. It's, are they a minority group in Israel, or are they a majority group? Are they a part of... That's the real question for them. Are they responsible to what's happening in this country, or do they still live in the shtetl, and they're only responsible to take care of their own? And politically, at least, they claim, or at least if you look at the type of positions that they take, they put a claim on the country on wanting to lead the country. So it really is time to also act as if they're a part of the majority and not the minority.
Okay, but said that you want to agree completely about that. The question is, can that be made to happen?
Well, not under Netanyahu.
No, forget Netanyahu. He's not going to live forever.
Yes, absolutely. Yes, of course it can happen. Absolutely. Economic motivations, educational tools. There are so many ways to do You just have to want to do that.
Okay, that's optimistic, and I appreciate optimism in any form these days. The last question I'll ask you, specifically because you're outside of Israel now, and you're certainly in the Bay Area, which is a hotbed of all sorts of things. You talked about Israel being isolated earlier in our conversation internationally. And again, we don't have to tease out right now how much of that is because of the war, how much of that is because of Israel in general, how much of that is anti-Semitism, which morphs. But you got your finger on the pulse of a good part of liberal America. These are the very smart students that you talk to all the time, the very smart faculty people that you're with at Berkeley. These are smart people. You can agree with them or disagree with them, our listeners might be thinking, but they're smart. Are you optimistic about Israel being able to recapture a place in the international community that it once had?
Yes, but a lot of things have to happen, and they're not just Israel-related. World liberalism has to sort itself out before. It really depends on which ideology is going to move forward. Because if it's progressivism, then probably not. But I don't think progressivism has a very bright future right now in the world in general.
Yeah. So there's optimism there, too.
I think so. Again, I don't want to sound as if I'm a blind optimist, because I'm definitely not. And more often than not, I'm depressed these days. I feel like It's not even optimism, it's just determination, maybe. Yeah, that's great.
Look, I just want to point out to people, this is actually, for me, an unbelievably inspiring conversation, because it's very open and it's very honest. And I I hear a lot of people saying, Oh, Dor HaNitzachon, this young generation of victors, et cetera, et cetera. Okay, very nice. Dor HaNitzachon. They really have fought like lions and lionesses. It's unbelievable, the courage and the selflessness and the sacrifice. But that's not enough to say. One needs to actually be able to point to things like the problems of liberalism in the world and the reason that liberalism is eating its own young, the sense of possibility for political change. So you're right, it's not Pollyanna-ish, anything you're saying, but it is filled with optimism and it's filled with determination. And it's from a woman who could clearly, and her husband, who could clearly find jobs in the States in about a day or two, and are coming back to raise four children here. Two of them are boys. So knowing what that might mean for them and what they're going to have to do for a number of years. It's just, I think for all of us who are listening, very, very, very filling and inspiring to hear someone as clear-eyed and, I would say, honest with yourself and at the same time so deeply committed to the project that your grandparents didn't have when they were earlier on in their lives and what your parents worked so hard to make and what you're determined to pass on to your kids.
When I have hard days, I'm going to listen to you again. We have the recording. I'm going to just play it on my little Airpods and walk around Jerusalem and take that inspiration. So Dr. Masua Sagiv, thank you really tremendously from the bottom of my heart for this inspiring and informative and very Zionist conversation. And I look forward to our next lunch and coffee here in Jerusalem.
Amen. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Music credits: Medieval poem by Rabbi Shlomo Ibn Gvirol. Melody and performance by Shaked Jehuda and Eyal Gesundheit. Production by Eyal Gesundheit. To view a video of their performance, see this YouTube:
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