If anyone helps me, makes my life a little easier I say "thank you". It's time you say thank you. You have received so much from your country. That's why you are there. It's time you protect your home, your family, your country. Why should others give up their lives, their children's lives to save your life when you refuse to do the same for them?
Again As I've said to you before, until you bring in and interview someone affiliated with the Chareidi this blog will always be "Israel from the outside" on this issue. Quoting an American Rabbi is lazy journalism and anyone who has lived in both of these communities know that despite similar dress one is a different world from the other.
I for one believe that Charedim TRULY need to serve in the IDF. The devil (excuse the expression) is in the details. Will Israel incarcerate those that fail to show up on draft day? How many prisons can Israel actually build for the draft dodging Charedim? We still don't know how many prisons will need to be built for Hamas POW's of which Israel is already facing a dire shortage of room. And let's say for argument's sake Israel does build prisons for the Charedim, what a great place to evade distractions and study Torah all day without the headache of screaming children and groaning wives. I can't see Israel prohibiting Torah study in prison as we know that Palestinian prisoners are even allowed to study law along with their holy books. Certainly, Israel would not impose harsher treatment of Charedim than of Palestinian terrorists! Ironically throwing Charedim into prisons might just create better students with no distractions and create a greater desire for Torah Study to frustrate the Israeli government's attempts to force the Charedim to bow to Secular Law.It seems to me nothing good can come out of this, only to see greater obstinacy from the Charedim with a touch of as we say in Greek-AF TZULOCHIS (on purpose) .
Do you really thing that Charedim or so different than us that they want to abandon their families to study more Torah? This is an unfortunate and frustrating comment
Sorry if I offended you but taking your point seriously, I wonder why they feel other people should protect their families from death and danger while they sit quietly in a study hall? Although there was no religious kibbutz or moshavim on the Gaza border Buses can get blown up in cities not to mention personal attacks. Adding IDF trained eyes and bodies to the IDF which will be adding more months to a regular soldier's time would help alot and maybe if they take it as Pikuach Nefesh they can spend some time away from their studies, you would think? Of course, maybe not IF they don't think like us.
Sorry for the delay. btw there is a beautiful piece of Talmud (that Ruth Calderon taught to the Knesset) Ketubot 62b that looks at the dangers of putting learning above family. I agree with all your questions and points. They should be addressed by the Haredim and not just speculated on by those on the outside. I think the beginning of an answer lies in the statement from the Sephardic chief rabbi just gave. So instead of just calling the comment "shameful" (yes I'm aiming at Daniel Gordis in his recent post), one has to try and understand the mindset of the other before you can properly engage with and hope to convince otherwise. You could try force them but in our history it does not end well when you force observant people to abandon their beliefs
Appreciate your input better late than never. I agree that using force dragging Charedim, kicking and screaming into the draft center is a bad look for everyone around but what other way but "cold turkey" to get rid of years of addiction of being coddled and catered to by government after government from both sides of the aisle. How do you convince people that Israel is in serious existential danger, and more manpower is needed in the IDF, and the present and future governments are not kidding? Either the survival of Israel is in your kishkas or it ain't. Threatening to leave Israel for sunnier pastures is "shameful" to say the least. My answer to those who are serious "Gay Gezunta Heyt".For those who feel otherwise start with a push up a day and welcome to the "Jewish State" the land of Jewish sovereignty.
One needs to try and understand their mindset and not just reject it out of hand. They believe (whether you do or not or even if the Jewish sources we refer to do not support this) that their learning supports the IDF and the entire Jewish people and puts us in God's favor. Those not following Torah and mitzvot lack merit on his/her own. They are not threatening to leave for sunnier pastures. They are threatening to leave to continue their learning elsewhere for the benefit of the Jewish people and the protect their spiritual growth which is what (in their world) Hashem wants. Many are not Zionists The are neither for or against the Jewish state. Their way of life in Israel predated the state. Their fidelity is to the Torah - that is their national homeland. BTW I'm not saying that I agree, but I understand it. BTW I don't live a rose colored world and do recognize that while this is theory I'm sure that many of them are just trying to avoid hard work and not risk their lives under the guise of learning Torah.
To be nice I will call them conscientious objectors, but you would argue, no they are serving in their own way.I argue that when you are fighting a war of survival you cannot pick and choose how you think you will best serve on the battlefield, that is total chaos. Understanding that you are in a way playing devil's advocate but don't work too hard ,there is little NACHAS in it.
Don’t know once again what happened with Daniel.First the Eisenkot misreading of what’s going on.Now Ben Caspit is somewhat right wing.Ben who we said we are committing geocidein Gaza(see Eyal Waldman’s cocktail party).Really Daniel,I know you’ve got a lot going on,but really!I fear your overseas readers are being misled🙃
Dear Mr. Haredi,
If anyone helps me, makes my life a little easier I say "thank you". It's time you say thank you. You have received so much from your country. That's why you are there. It's time you protect your home, your family, your country. Why should others give up their lives, their children's lives to save your life when you refuse to do the same for them?
Ruth Moser Riemer
Again As I've said to you before, until you bring in and interview someone affiliated with the Chareidi this blog will always be "Israel from the outside" on this issue. Quoting an American Rabbi is lazy journalism and anyone who has lived in both of these communities know that despite similar dress one is a different world from the other.
Excellent piece, todah
I for one believe that Charedim TRULY need to serve in the IDF. The devil (excuse the expression) is in the details. Will Israel incarcerate those that fail to show up on draft day? How many prisons can Israel actually build for the draft dodging Charedim? We still don't know how many prisons will need to be built for Hamas POW's of which Israel is already facing a dire shortage of room. And let's say for argument's sake Israel does build prisons for the Charedim, what a great place to evade distractions and study Torah all day without the headache of screaming children and groaning wives. I can't see Israel prohibiting Torah study in prison as we know that Palestinian prisoners are even allowed to study law along with their holy books. Certainly, Israel would not impose harsher treatment of Charedim than of Palestinian terrorists! Ironically throwing Charedim into prisons might just create better students with no distractions and create a greater desire for Torah Study to frustrate the Israeli government's attempts to force the Charedim to bow to Secular Law.It seems to me nothing good can come out of this, only to see greater obstinacy from the Charedim with a touch of as we say in Greek-AF TZULOCHIS (on purpose) .
Re shortage of space for Hamas prisoners in Israeli prisons. How about the tunnels?
They would feel too much at home. Part of their punishment should be taking them out of their comfort zone.
Do you really thing that Charedim or so different than us that they want to abandon their families to study more Torah? This is an unfortunate and frustrating comment
Sorry if I offended you but taking your point seriously, I wonder why they feel other people should protect their families from death and danger while they sit quietly in a study hall? Although there was no religious kibbutz or moshavim on the Gaza border Buses can get blown up in cities not to mention personal attacks. Adding IDF trained eyes and bodies to the IDF which will be adding more months to a regular soldier's time would help alot and maybe if they take it as Pikuach Nefesh they can spend some time away from their studies, you would think? Of course, maybe not IF they don't think like us.
Sorry for the delay. btw there is a beautiful piece of Talmud (that Ruth Calderon taught to the Knesset) Ketubot 62b that looks at the dangers of putting learning above family. I agree with all your questions and points. They should be addressed by the Haredim and not just speculated on by those on the outside. I think the beginning of an answer lies in the statement from the Sephardic chief rabbi just gave. So instead of just calling the comment "shameful" (yes I'm aiming at Daniel Gordis in his recent post), one has to try and understand the mindset of the other before you can properly engage with and hope to convince otherwise. You could try force them but in our history it does not end well when you force observant people to abandon their beliefs
Appreciate your input better late than never. I agree that using force dragging Charedim, kicking and screaming into the draft center is a bad look for everyone around but what other way but "cold turkey" to get rid of years of addiction of being coddled and catered to by government after government from both sides of the aisle. How do you convince people that Israel is in serious existential danger, and more manpower is needed in the IDF, and the present and future governments are not kidding? Either the survival of Israel is in your kishkas or it ain't. Threatening to leave Israel for sunnier pastures is "shameful" to say the least. My answer to those who are serious "Gay Gezunta Heyt".For those who feel otherwise start with a push up a day and welcome to the "Jewish State" the land of Jewish sovereignty.
One needs to try and understand their mindset and not just reject it out of hand. They believe (whether you do or not or even if the Jewish sources we refer to do not support this) that their learning supports the IDF and the entire Jewish people and puts us in God's favor. Those not following Torah and mitzvot lack merit on his/her own. They are not threatening to leave for sunnier pastures. They are threatening to leave to continue their learning elsewhere for the benefit of the Jewish people and the protect their spiritual growth which is what (in their world) Hashem wants. Many are not Zionists The are neither for or against the Jewish state. Their way of life in Israel predated the state. Their fidelity is to the Torah - that is their national homeland. BTW I'm not saying that I agree, but I understand it. BTW I don't live a rose colored world and do recognize that while this is theory I'm sure that many of them are just trying to avoid hard work and not risk their lives under the guise of learning Torah.
To be nice I will call them conscientious objectors, but you would argue, no they are serving in their own way.I argue that when you are fighting a war of survival you cannot pick and choose how you think you will best serve on the battlefield, that is total chaos. Understanding that you are in a way playing devil's advocate but don't work too hard ,there is little NACHAS in it.
Don’t know once again what happened with Daniel.First the Eisenkot misreading of what’s going on.Now Ben Caspit is somewhat right wing.Ben who we said we are committing geocidein Gaza(see Eyal Waldman’s cocktail party).Really Daniel,I know you’ve got a lot going on,but really!I fear your overseas readers are being misled🙃