Define “reasonableness” as defined by the Supreme Court. Then define “reasonableness” in a way that dots not sound like judicial activism and see if there is a difference. The Right strongly believes there is a difference, which is why they think Israel is a judicial dictatorship made up of self-selecting justices. Until the Left can argue otherwise (if they can) or come to a solution (if they can’t dispel the Right’s argument), we are going to continue to have a problem. As of now, though, I have not gotten a straight answer on what “reasonableness” means without it creeping into the territory of judicial activism.
I still do not understand how taking power away from a body that is composed of people appointed by its members, i.e. a self perpetuating elite, and giving it to a democratically elected assembly is destroying democracy.
Furthermore, regardless of the protests, if the proposals are adopted nothing can stop the existing Supreme Court from invalidating them and sending everybody back to square one.
Drop the pretense this has anything to do with democracy or any other political theory. It is class warfare. The urban, educated, Ashkenazi, secular, Europeanized professional managerial class (I will call them the Blues) vs the rural, uneducated (at least in non-religious subjects), Sephardi, Mizrachi, traditional, working class (who I will call the Reds).
I am sympathetic to both sides. I think the former are arrogant and unappreciative of the lives and aspirations of the latter. I also think the Rabbinate and the haredi are perfectly awful, power grasping, narrow minded. I have no sympathy for the ones who who won't serve in the military and who live off of handouts while they hang out in yeshivas.
My guess is that the Blues will have too many aces, particularly in their ability to call a general strike and in their elite positions in the military. Eventually, they will collapse the Government, win the next election and stick it to the Reds by cutting off their handouts, drafting the haredi, and disempowering the Rabbinate.
Then the Iranians will set off a nuclear weapon and this narishkeit will be forgotten.
Although I agree with your perceptions of the excessive and unchecked powers of the Israeli judicial system, and understand your view of the situation as "class warfare", please don't help in encouraging the very damaging and negative stereotypes you employ to categorize "Sephardi, Mizrachi, traditional working class" Israelis.
I live in the northern "periphery" of Israel with my Moroccan-born wife (I am Ashkenazi and American born). We are religiously observant (not Haredi). The vast majority of people in our area have roots in the lands of Islam ("Mizrahim"). No, Mr. Sobchak, they are not "uneducated"(even in "non-religious" subjects), and the vast majority have middle-class and/or professional
status . Perhaps you would like to know that we are living in 2023 and not 1953!
And although it is true that in 1953, most of the Jewish immigrants from, say, rural Morocco or Iraq or Tunisia or Yemen had little if any secular education, even then, most of those living in the larger cities like Baghdad, Tunis, Casablanca, or Alexandria were highly secularly educated and many were of the middle class and "managerial elite" This fact is overlooked even by Israelis!
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that you did not mean to denigrate these people, but by repeating these falsehoods, that is the ultimate effect (the "arrogance" you mention).
You correction is accepted. Much of that is stereotype. But, the point remains. It is class warfare. Similar class wars have broken out all over Europe and North America. The details and the alignments of forces differ from country to country. In the US, the PMC has absolutely shunned the military, and the union movement has almost no followers out side of government employees. A strike of DMV clerks won't shut the country down.
What’s even worse is that people like Lapid have called for some of these exact reforms in the past. They are now cynically using them to try to destroy the current government.
Thanks so much for your clear evaluation of the situation. Very disheartening but at the same time very inspiring that the proponents of democracy will not be silenced.
It is difficult for me to embrace this vision of the situation because it is presented as the “democratic left” against the current government. We can’t just totally dismiss the fact that a majority segment of the voting population supports the reforms — albeit many with a call for compromise and discussion. It is wrong to relate to all those individuals as if they were the uninformed stupid masses.
Leaders on both sides have incited and inflamed and won’t back down now “davka”. That is tragic.
Define “reasonableness” as defined by the Supreme Court. Then define “reasonableness” in a way that dots not sound like judicial activism and see if there is a difference. The Right strongly believes there is a difference, which is why they think Israel is a judicial dictatorship made up of self-selecting justices. Until the Left can argue otherwise (if they can) or come to a solution (if they can’t dispel the Right’s argument), we are going to continue to have a problem. As of now, though, I have not gotten a straight answer on what “reasonableness” means without it creeping into the territory of judicial activism.
Serve your country well…. Elite military units should not get involved in political posturing. Settle issues through elections and dialogue.
A while back, I said 'this is 70 CE all over again...'
I still do not understand how taking power away from a body that is composed of people appointed by its members, i.e. a self perpetuating elite, and giving it to a democratically elected assembly is destroying democracy.
Furthermore, regardless of the protests, if the proposals are adopted nothing can stop the existing Supreme Court from invalidating them and sending everybody back to square one.
Drop the pretense this has anything to do with democracy or any other political theory. It is class warfare. The urban, educated, Ashkenazi, secular, Europeanized professional managerial class (I will call them the Blues) vs the rural, uneducated (at least in non-religious subjects), Sephardi, Mizrachi, traditional, working class (who I will call the Reds).
I am sympathetic to both sides. I think the former are arrogant and unappreciative of the lives and aspirations of the latter. I also think the Rabbinate and the haredi are perfectly awful, power grasping, narrow minded. I have no sympathy for the ones who who won't serve in the military and who live off of handouts while they hang out in yeshivas.
My guess is that the Blues will have too many aces, particularly in their ability to call a general strike and in their elite positions in the military. Eventually, they will collapse the Government, win the next election and stick it to the Reds by cutting off their handouts, drafting the haredi, and disempowering the Rabbinate.
Then the Iranians will set off a nuclear weapon and this narishkeit will be forgotten.
Dear Mr. Sobchak,
Although I agree with your perceptions of the excessive and unchecked powers of the Israeli judicial system, and understand your view of the situation as "class warfare", please don't help in encouraging the very damaging and negative stereotypes you employ to categorize "Sephardi, Mizrachi, traditional working class" Israelis.
I live in the northern "periphery" of Israel with my Moroccan-born wife (I am Ashkenazi and American born). We are religiously observant (not Haredi). The vast majority of people in our area have roots in the lands of Islam ("Mizrahim"). No, Mr. Sobchak, they are not "uneducated"(even in "non-religious" subjects), and the vast majority have middle-class and/or professional
status . Perhaps you would like to know that we are living in 2023 and not 1953!
And although it is true that in 1953, most of the Jewish immigrants from, say, rural Morocco or Iraq or Tunisia or Yemen had little if any secular education, even then, most of those living in the larger cities like Baghdad, Tunis, Casablanca, or Alexandria were highly secularly educated and many were of the middle class and "managerial elite" This fact is overlooked even by Israelis!
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that you did not mean to denigrate these people, but by repeating these falsehoods, that is the ultimate effect (the "arrogance" you mention).
You correction is accepted. Much of that is stereotype. But, the point remains. It is class warfare. Similar class wars have broken out all over Europe and North America. The details and the alignments of forces differ from country to country. In the US, the PMC has absolutely shunned the military, and the union movement has almost no followers out side of government employees. A strike of DMV clerks won't shut the country down.
What’s even worse is that people like Lapid have called for some of these exact reforms in the past. They are now cynically using them to try to destroy the current government.
Thanks so much for your clear evaluation of the situation. Very disheartening but at the same time very inspiring that the proponents of democracy will not be silenced.
It is difficult for me to embrace this vision of the situation because it is presented as the “democratic left” against the current government. We can’t just totally dismiss the fact that a majority segment of the voting population supports the reforms — albeit many with a call for compromise and discussion. It is wrong to relate to all those individuals as if they were the uninformed stupid masses.
Leaders on both sides have incited and inflamed and won’t back down now “davka”. That is tragic.